{"id":321,"date":"2019-04-28T21:00:49","date_gmt":"2019-04-29T04:00:49","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/technicalseo.com\/insights\/?post_type=episode&#038;p=321"},"modified":"2019-05-02T01:24:46","modified_gmt":"2019-05-02T08:24:46","slug":"frederic-dubut","status":"publish","type":"episode","link":"https:\/\/technicalseo.com\/insights\/podcast\/frederic-dubut\/","title":{"rendered":"2. Interview w\/ Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric Dubut, Bing"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<h2>Linked Resources:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul><li><a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/CoperniX\" target=\"_blank\">Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric&#8217;s Twitter (@CoperniX)<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Word_embedding\" target=\"_blank\">Word embeddings<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Word2vec\" target=\"_blank\">Word2Vec<\/a><ul><li><a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/projector.tensorflow.org\/\ufeff\" target=\"_blank\">Visualization<\/a><\/li><\/ul><\/li><li>Andrew Ng&#8217;s <a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/www.deeplearning.ai\/\" target=\"_blank\">deep learning course<\/a><\/li><li>Bing&#8217;s new <a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bing.com\/webmaster\/january-2019\/bingbot-Series-Get-your-content-indexed-fast-by-now-submitting-up-to-10,000-URLs-per-day-to-Bing\" target=\"_blank\">indexing API<\/a><\/li><li>Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric&#8217;s <a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/H_3lgANhv2Y\ufeff\" target=\"_blank\">TechSEO Boost presentation<\/a> (w\/Christi Olsen)<\/li><li>Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric&#8217;s <a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/www.searchenginejournal.com\/build-search-ranking-algorithm-machine-learning\/297047\/\" target=\"_blank\">article on ML and guidelines<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/g33konaut\" target=\"_blank\">Martin Splitt<\/a>&#8216;s <a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"http:\/\/ https:\/\/webmasters.googleblog.com\/2019\/01\/dynamic-rendering-with-rendertron.html \" target=\"_blank\">Article on JS<\/a><\/li><li>Playlist for <a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=wSwzfEn5-6A&amp;list=PLKoqnv2vTMUPOalM1zuWDP9OQl851WMM9\" target=\"_blank\">Martin&#8217;s JS Series<\/a> <\/li><li><a rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Okapi_BM25\" target=\"_blank\">BM25<\/a> (i.e., more advanced TF-IDF)<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2>Topic Timestamps:<strong><br><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>[0:15] intros<br>[2:45] why the relationship with the search community<br>[4:05] how can webmasters help Bing (remember Bing!)<br>[5:45] why is the community focused on JavaScript?<br>[9:00] frederic&#8217;s techSEO boost talk<br>[12:15] what should SEOs know relating to machine learning?<br>[14:15] trust, bing, and spam<br>[15:30] Bing&#8217;s approach on dealing with spam<br>[16:45] importance of high quality results (especially top results)<br>[17:15] search and SEO community relationship<br>[20:15] what makes a strong eCommerce site? (trust)<br>[22:15] bing on accepting feedback<br>[27:15] internationalization in bing<br>[28:15] why word vectors<br>[32:15] related content hubs<br>[33:15] more word vector stuff<br>[35:45] <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2019\/01\/02\/obituaries\/karen-sparck-jones-overlooked.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Karen Jones<\/a> -IDF<br>[37:45] 3 pieces of wisdom<br>    1. remember that we build sites and products for people<br>   2. take Andrew Ng&#8217;s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.deeplearning.ai\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">deeplearning course<\/a><br>   3. sign up for BWT (submit URLs or use their <a href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bing.com\/webmaster\/january-2019\/bingbot-Series-Get-your-content-indexed-fast-by-now-submitting-up-to-10,000-URLs-per-day-to-Bing\ufeff\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">brand new API<\/a>)<br>[44:15] closing <\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2>Favorite Quotes: <\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul><li>&#8220;In the end, we build all of this for people. &#8220;<\/li><li>&#8220;One of the one of the way we frame it here (at Bing is) if you look at all the eCommerce websites on the Internet, one question we asked ourselves is, would we give our credit card numbers to that website?&#8221;<\/li><li>&#8220;It comes from the fact that our users really trust us to serve the best and most authoritative results.&#8221;<\/li><li>&#8220;Because when we fail it has real life consequences for these people. &#8220;<\/li><li>&#8221; We are an industry where we are builders. We build websites, we build products, we build the search engine. We all build these things for people.&#8221;<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2>Transcript:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><em>Note 1<\/em><\/strong><em>:  Add about ~15 seconds to timestamps to account for intro. \ud83d\ude42<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em><strong>Note 2<\/strong>: If you see notice any major errors, please reach out to seointhelab [at] merkleinc.com, we tried our best to stay true to the vocal version.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:02] Alexis Sanders:<\/strong>\nHello. Hello. And welcome back to the podcast. Today we have Frederic Dubut\nfrom Bing as well as Max from Merkle. Max, would you like to give an\nintroduction of yourself first?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:12] Max Prin: <\/strong>Sure.\nThanks, Alexis. My name is Max. I lead the technical SEO team here at Merkle\nand we focus on the most technical aspects of SEO, such as structural data and\ncrawling and indexing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:25] Alexis:<\/strong>\nAnd then Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:26] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric Dubut:<\/strong> I\nam Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric Dubut. I&#8217;m part of the Web ranking and quality team here at Bing,\nwith the specific focus on anti-spam, anti-malware, and all the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:37] Alexis:<\/strong>\nAwesome! And one of the things I found in my research of you, Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric, is that\nyou speak five different languages. How did that even happen?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:46] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nWell, I don&#8217;t speak them very well. And really, I\u2019m truly proficient in French\nand English. And then they said practice makes perfect and for language. I\nthink like the lack of practice makes you forget very, very fast in France. And\nMax went through the same system that I believe you have to start studying\nforeign language when you are like, ten or eleven or so. And you have to say,\nlike seven or nine years of language. So And you have to take two of them. So I\npicked English and Spanish. That&#8217;s why there&#8217;s two. And then I was interested\nin Japan in general. So I learned a little Japanese lived there a little while,\nand then I start toward Zurich. So I had to pick up a little bit of German.\nHere are your five languages.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:29] Alexis:<\/strong>\nWow! So we could do this podcast in, like, totally in French, probably with you\nand Max. And I would just listen in\u2026 I&#8217;m just kidding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:37]<\/strong> <strong>Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> exactament. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:40] Max:<\/strong> Yeah,\nbecause after several years living in the U. S. You forget your French. That&#8217;s\nvery hard for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:52] Alexis:<\/strong> I\nimagine that&#8217;s so true. Gosh\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:56] Max:<\/strong> I\ncould actually, actually a hard time like talking about SEO in French. So\neverything is in English.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:04] Alexis:<\/strong> Is\nit just the work terminology?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:05] Max:<\/strong>\nYeah, everything. All the key terms, Everything is in English.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:09] Alexis:<\/strong> Ah, that&#8217;s so interesting! And fascinating. Awesome. Okay, so if we dive into some of the meat of the podcast, one of the things that I&#8217;ve been seeing, you (Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric) speak on the circuit a lot. And, of course, thank you so much, because it&#8217;s so fascinating. One of the things that I&#8217;ve been noticing is that Google and Bing as well, especially, have been integrating more in with the search community, which is awesome to see, and one of things from the SEO perspective that I&#8217;m really interested in is &#8211; what can we, as SEOs, do to support Bing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:40] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, that&#8217;s a good question in general, the reason why we want to interact\nwith the communities, that they keep us honest. In the sense that we know the\nproduct we want to build. we think we know how it&#8217;s working and then You talk\nlike ten minutes with SEO\u2019s, and they tell you exactly. No, no, no. This\ntechnique you thought you eliminated it actually works Great. These kind of\nthings, eh? So for us, it&#8217;s really enlightening. So any feedback the community\nhas, it is definitely the best way to help us make a better product for users.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:03:12] Alexis:<\/strong> So\nit&#8217;s almost like by going to these SEO conferences, or search conferences, You\nguys were doing some product research?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:03:17] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, absolutely. And I like the product of a program manager role is very\nfocused on customers, understanding users. And we have, we\u2019re in a very\ninteresting position at Bing, where we have two different set of customers, so\nto speak. We have the final users who are actually using the product and\nentering the search queries. But the Webmaster community as well and SEOs is\nextremely important. Without webmasters, without people who write great content\nfor the Internet, there would be no point in having a search engine. So for us,\nit&#8217;s extremely important to interact with both.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:03:52] Alexis<\/strong>: Definitely!\nthat&#8217;s awesome! And are there any specific tasks? I know that when you spoke\nback at SMX East, you talked about how we could optimize our crawl efficiency\nas something that is helpful to Bing and is really useful. Is there anything\nelse like that that you can think of that at the end of the day makes both our\nwebsites better as well as Bing a better search engine?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:04:15] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah and for a lot of people, it will be just making sure the basics are\nworking (in terms of crawl indexing). A lot of the technical SEO is not very\ndifferent for Google and Bing. But what a lot of people don&#8217;t realize is\nsometimes they just allowed Google to crawl everything and Bing gets a disallow.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And if you are an SEO, webmaster, and you complain\nthat you feel you&#8217;re too dependent on Google to get your search traffic, but at\nthe same time, you&#8217;re blocking all the other crawlers, all the other search\nengines from indexing your website\u2026 Well, you&#8217;re never going to get away from\nthat situation. And those people don&#8217;t realize these are like two very related\npoints, so make sure the basics are working for being in the same with our\nworking for Google is definitely number one thing for most people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:02] Alexis:<\/strong> I\nlove that point. Think of Bing, remember Bing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You obviously can&#8217;t see me right now, but I&#8217;m\nwearing a Bing sweatshirt today, so really reppin\u2019 Bing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:12] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> I don\u2019t.\n(Lol) There&#8217;s only one person on this podcast wearing Bing swag.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:18] Max:<\/strong> That\u2019s not true! I have a Merkle branded jacket that has a Bing logo on the shoulder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:20]<\/strong> <strong>Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> Nice, nice, there\u2019s only one person\non this they&#8217;re not for wearing Bing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:28] Alexis:<\/strong>\nThat&#8217;s awesome. So you reminded me of a tweet that you had recently where you\nasked people in the search community what they&#8217;re interested in hearing whether\nit was about JavaScript, machine learning or search history, right? And the top\none was JavaScript. Why do you think that this search community is so\nfascinated with JavaScript?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:48] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nWell, I think there&#8217;s a legitimate concern from the community that as their\nwebsites are getting more, more complicated, the search engines are not going\nto represent them (in their index) in the best way. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There is a lot of misunderstanding around what are\nthe best practices for JavaScript (or for other things we should do or the\nthings we shouldn&#8217;t do). Maybe in the search engine side, there was some\nmiscommunication in terms of \u201cdo we support JavaScript\u201d or \u201cwe don\u2019t support JavaScript\u201d.\nIt&#8217;s much more nuanced than just saying, \u201cOh, yeah, of course we support JavaScript.\u201d\nYep, in Bing we can claim with support JavaScript, in the sense that our crawler\nis able to download those kind of resources. Render the pages for most\nframeworks. But there is also a relative very process intensive, additionally\nintensive process. So you have fairly little control in what search engines are\ngoing to index on your site from JavaScript compared to a regular HTML. And I\nunderstand that can cause some nervousness in the SEO community. So that&#8217;s\nprobably why there is a lot of questions and concerns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:06:54] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah, so like a lot of anxiety combined with probably like you said, some\ndifferent formats of information. I know that one of the things that we&#8217;ve seen\nis that for certain sites, JavaScript &#8211; totally fine. But then you&#8217;ll go.\nYou&#8217;ll have another site experience where they&#8217;ll switch over to a very JavaScript,\nheavy experience and their traffic will suffer from it. So I think that lack of\nconsistency in terms of experience is so fascinating, and I think it&#8217;s\nsomething that makes people really anxious because they don&#8217;t want to have that\ntype of trend in their performances as well. So thank you for sharing that. So\nare you going to actually write a piece on that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:07:26] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> I\nthink the piece will be on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.searchenginejournal.com\/build-search-ranking-algorithm-machine-learning\/297047\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">ML\nand guidelines<\/a> actually. One of the reasons is Google came recently with\nvery good article. I think it was Martin Splitt who <a href=\"https:\/\/webmasters.googleblog.com\/2019\/01\/dynamic-rendering-with-rendertron.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">wrote\nit<\/a> about <a href=\"https:\/\/github.com\/GoogleChrome\/rendertron\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">RenderTron<\/a>\nand Techniques to make it easier for websites to be indexed when there is JavaScript.\nI think there is a lot of literature that has already being written on\nJavaScript. So I felt that even though, it was fairly clear, I think was forty\nfive forty one percent that close, close enough that I felt there was not\nenough written around ML and guidelines, and that&#8217;s probably why I&#8217;m going to\nwrite about all that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:07:59] Max:<\/strong>\nYeah, I was about to say, That&#8217;s the good news about, like best practices for\nJavaScript. Is that what you can do to make sure search engines can understand\nyour Content is to serve a prerendered or HTML &nbsp;snapshot and it goes for both like Google and\nBing. once again like what you do for one search engine, it&#8217;s not different\nthan what you would do to optimize for another search engine, so optimization\nof time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:08:22] Alexis:<\/strong>\nOptimization of time. I love it. And I love the idea of basically endorsing\ncontent that Google has already done, saying this is fine, it works similar for\nBing, let&#8217;s focus on what we need to with machine learning. Which brings up the\ntalk that you had a Tech SEO boost, which was so fascinating as well. And I\nloved your little quip where you said that Bing was the first to have to be\npowered by a neural net, that&#8217;s so exciting and so interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:08:45] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s a little known fact that that&#8217;s why Christi (Olsen) and I insisted we kind of hammer it like at the end of every conference now. We say it&#8217;s like Bing was the first one. Interestingly, these were like very rudimentary neural nets at the time. Like, our founder with deep learning. It wasn&#8217;t really deep in it in any way, because only one hidden layer and it was well, it was very simple. It shows that it&#8217;s something that&#8217;s been tough mind at Microsoft research and Bing search. Now at Bing for quite a while, we believe the best way to scale search is to use machine learning to make the machine learn about one of the best results to be returned for a query. And that&#8217;s why we have taken this approach that may be slightly different from what other major search engines do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:09:30] Alexis:<\/strong> I\nlove that it&#8217;s like the most shallow, deep learning that you have. (lol) I&#8217;m\njust kidding, of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:09:36] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nThat&#8217;s right. It&#8217;s just quite bits. That was thirteen years ago. So\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:09:41] Alexis:<\/strong> It\nwas deep for thirteen years ago, exactly. And you mentioned to they had, like a\nton of features over, like, five hundred features that were engineered into it.\nWhich, I mean, it&#8217;s one of the very challenging things that have probably been\ncustom done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:09:54] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, and honestly, I don&#8217;t I don&#8217;t know exactly how they did it back in 2005.\nBut future engineering is definitely a big challenge and that that&#8217;s why a lot\nof the discussions around ranking factors sounds a bit funny, especially for us\nat Bing, because some of the features are like derivatives off like several\nother features. You combine thing and it&#8217;s a very, our engineers take is that\nit really is a machine learning problem, so they create new features that will\nreally make a lot of sense for humans. But have actually a great predictive\npower for the for the model. And that&#8217;s where, like, this ranking factor thing,\nlike always comes in a bit odd for us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:10:33] Alexis:<\/strong>\nyeah, I loved how powerful your example of what a machine sees is so different\nfrom what a person sees and in your example, You had used a stop sign where\nbasically, all you did they did was cover up a small part of it, and the\nmachine from that saw something totally different, which was a speed limit\nsign. And I think the idea that machines process information differently than\nhumans process information is so interesting and so fascinating and probably\nsomething that you have to deal with on a daily basis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:11:00] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, then that starts, like with some of the worst cases where we see things\nbetter, different from what you are seeing, like cloaking and this kind of\nthings that&#8217;s more like it. These are considered, like the cardinal sins of SEO\nand search, because if the machine can&#8217;t even access the same thing as users like\nlose all trust in everything you&#8217;re doing. But even like going back to JavaScript,\nthat&#8217;s also exactly what the problem is with JavaScript is not having the\nguarantee that machine is going to see all the goodness you&#8217;re showing to users\nwhen you have a JS heavy page. So I&#8217;m training all these features reading all\nthis knowledge can get complicated for sure. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:11:44] Alexis:<\/strong> Definitely.\nSo what do you think is the most important part of machine learning for search\nprofessionals To understand? Because you and it is so many complicated elements\nlike Bing\u2019s LambdaMART, vector space, (which I love, that I really hope the \u201cit&#8217;s\nthe same in the vector space\u201d catches on in the industry) and of course, RankNET.\nWhat do you think is really important for people who are maybe less technical\nor less well versed in mathematics to understand about what you&#8217;re trying to\nachieve with machine learning?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:12:13] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> So\nthat that&#8217;s where I think the guidelines come rolling to play. If you look at\nthe process of machine learning it, it can get pretty complicated from a\ntechnical point of view. If you&#8217;re not technical, that that sounds like a\nforeign language. So what is really important to remember is it&#8217;s a way to\ngeneralize search algorithms that is trained with how humans will be judging\nthe sites according to the guidelines. So the way we train our mission early\nmodel, we have a subset of queries and URLs, and we send judges to these\nwebsites, and we ask them to rate them according to the search quality\nguidelines and that makes your training set. And we hold a little bit of this\ndata as, like validation and test set. And then that&#8217;s where you train your\nmachine learning algorithm. You want to go with them to perform really great on\nthis small subset of queries and URL\u2019s that have been judged by humans. Then\nyou validate with other metrics that generalized pretty well to the 1,000x more\nqueries and URL\u2019s we see. So in the end, thinking, with my site, according to\nguidelines, get to perfect or excellent or good rating is probably a good way\nto think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:13:26] Alexis:<\/strong>\nNice. I love the idea of using humans as almost like he said, training all of\nthat data so that you can, then iterate on that process to make it more\nefficient and better in the end, there&#8217;s like something very beautiful in that.\nHopefully, one day it&#8217;ll be all machines, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:13:40] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> I\ndon&#8217;t know if I would trust machines to the 100% of the work. For one, I like\nmy job. I don&#8217;t want a machine to take it. (lol) In the end, we build all of\nthis for people. So keeping people involved in the process, keeping the machine\nhonest. Looking whether the results make sense, not just that the metric looks\ngood. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s going away anytime soon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:14:04] Max:<\/strong>\nAnd Frederic, you talked about trust towards a website. I remember from\nexperience that Bing is pretty aggressive with, like spam or like a big red\nflags about websites. A few years ago, I remember website that we were launching\nand it was a dot info. And just for that reason, it could not be indexed right\naway. Can you tell us more? But like maybe some, some big red flags that Bing,\nas in the system that say \u201cthat website, most likely not a good one.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:14:36] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric<\/strong>:\nSo like in the same way that I don&#8217;t think there is any like silver bullet in\nterms of good ranking factors, when you go outside of the worst offenders like\ncloaking, I&#8217;m not sure there is anything where we would we ban outright a\nwebsite. I think what happens at Bing, compared to other search engines, is we\ntend to see violations of a Webmaster Guidelines, as mostly voluntary. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I when I hear Fili Wiese (and I know he doesn&#8217;t\nrepresent Google anymore), but he talks about this manual penalties and he\nsays, this is mostly education and if people fix their issues, (Google will)\nremove the penalty and everything is great. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And on our side, we take probably what I more\npunitive approach, where if you try to cheat the system, you&#8217;re going to have a\npenalty that is going to last for a while because we don&#8217;t want you to cheat\nthe system again. And we&#8217;ve seen before if we remove the penalty. The sites\ntends to just do the same things again so that That&#8217;s why I like when you say\nwe&#8217;re harsher on spam, I think the idea of spam is fairly similar. But the way\nwe approach it is a bit different. Maybe more of a punitive way to make sure\nlike people who live by the rules, actually are ranked higher in the results.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:15:45] Max:<\/strong>\nThat makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:47] Alexis: It brings back this idea. The\nfact that you know your site is a relationship between your experience, your\nusers, and then also search engines as well. Because there&#8217;s almost like this\nimplicit trust that&#8217;s formed and you mention the word trust. Of course, I know\nthat with Google, this whole idea of expertise, authoritativeness, and\ntrustworthiness is becoming more and more important or popping up a little bit\nmore. But I think it&#8217;s so interesting and fascinating that you know you&#8217;re\nusing that as a standard, almost as if it&#8217;s an actual relationship.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:16:16] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nWell, yeah, and it comes from the fact that our users really trust us to serve\nthe best and most authoritative results, and especially for queries is like the\ntax season is picking up, and people want to make sure that they&#8217;re not giving\ntheir social security number out, and all of their confidential information\nout, scammers. And a lot of people will trust whatever comes at the first\npositions on Bing. And If they click on the first link, like they cannot even\nimagine, most of them actually cannot even imagine we will send them to a scam\nor anything like that. So it is a huge responsibility for us. That&#8217;s why we\ntake it extremely seriously. Because when we fail it has real life consequences\nfor these people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:17:00] Alexis:<\/strong> Definitely.\nAnd do you think, Oh, I know that one of your articles that you mentioned, that\nyou&#8217;re thinking about running with the history of search, which I don&#8217;t\nunderstand why it was the least popular? Because I feel like to hear from your\nperspective of the history of search would be so incredibly fascinating,\nbecause I felt that (and I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve felt that this as well) that as\ntime has gone on, people have gravitated more towards that first result. Where\nis in the past? I mean, when I was younger, just remember almost being told to\nmore critically evaluate all of the results that were coming through, and then\nnow it&#8217;s like, oh, just click on the first one. Whatever that says is fine,\nwhich probably shifts more responsibility onto you as a search engine and your team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:17:38] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric: <\/strong>Yes,\nand so there are two aspects to this from one sense, and it makes it slightly\neasier because if it puts more weight on the number one number two number three\nresults, that means also like the weight of responsibilities is lower for in\nreturn, things that are not necessarily the best results like number nine or\nnumber ten. For some queries like if you type something like [Facebook log in],\nthere is an excellent number one result I can think of and not much more two,\nthree, four, five that I think would fulfill their user intent. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So to some extent it makes it a bit easier for this\ncategory of very navigational like very explicit intent queries. But on the\nother hand, you&#8217;re right, that it&#8217;s definitely changing. If you&#8217;ll get the best\ntwenty years, search is to be more of an information retrieval problem. So\nreally the idea of like, as you mean, this is a library of all the knowledge in\nthe world. \u201cHow can I find the ten best pieces of information or the ten best\nbooks in the library\u201d to match this this query and slowly, we&#8217;ve evolved\ntowards more like task completion, actual transactional intent, and also more\nand more money got involved. And so that&#8217;s where you get spam and people are\nbetween SEO and that that&#8217;s probably the main thing that changed like search.\nLike the idea that you get a lot of people who love to be a number one and\nwe&#8217;re going to do whatever it takes to be a number one. It&#8217;s not just an\ninformation control problem anymore. It&#8217;s becoming a really full-fledged products\nwhere all of these dimensions relevance, quality, context fall into place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:19:23] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYou know, when you have a lot of money on the line, I can imagine there&#8217;s a lot\nof consequences that could happen. And, of course, we&#8217;ve heard recently about\nso many different breakouts of data and data leakage issues, so super\nfascinating. So thank you for sharing that with us. Okay. Do you&#8217;ve any\nquestions, Max? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:19:39] Max:<\/strong>\nYeah sure. Since maybe you in Seattle and I hear there&#8217;s a big e commerce\ncompany in Seattle. If you can tell us, maybe it might be a little bit outside\noff, like the internal, Bing system. But like what For you makes like a great,\nlike, eCommerce experience like features on the website that user expect maybe,\nand that then, yes, maybe that Bing will reward without, giving away ranking\nfactors. That&#8217;s not really my question, but something that you guys are looking\nfor because users are looking for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:20:13] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric: Yeah<\/strong>,\nwhen it comes to the Bing eCommerce company in Seattle, it makes our life will\nbe easier because one of the one of the way we frame it here if you look at all\nthe eCommerce websites on the Internet, one question we asked ourselves is,\nwhat would we give our credit card numbers to that website? And so when it\ncomes to our neighbor in Seattle, sure, like, I think anyone in the world so\nconfident that if they give them their credit card number, is going to be taken\ncare of with the greatest care and they&#8217;re not going to get unwanted charges.\nAnd on the other hand, there are many websites on the Internet were like, never\never I would even give like four digits of my credit card and when you look at\nthese sites, this is really the question you trust yourself. Like, Would I give\nthem my credit card number? It works in the user&#8217;s mind. It&#8217;s like, what are\nthe trust factors on this website? Does it look professional that have an\nactual contact address that we can look up somewhere. I know that Google has in\ntheir guidelines has the BBB rating, and I don&#8217;t think they use it at the\nranking factor or something. But the idea that someone else is vouching for you\nis something that you need to take into account if you have an eCommerce\nwebsite from a trust point of view, all of these things are probably the number\none thing you want to make sure users are willing to do business with you, are\nwilling to give you their credit card number, And that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re looking for\nat the&nbsp; end, user satisfaction. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:21:38] Max:<\/strong> I\nlove that you said that, because just from a design standpoint, it&#8217;s today, it&#8217;s\nwith frameworks and built-in features and even would Bootstrap in orders like a\nCSS and HTML like from works that you can find out there. It is pretty easy to\nmake scam looked really good and really professional. So I&#8217;m glad to hear that\nit&#8217;s not just about that website can look good and be still a scam. And\nhopefully we won&#8217;t see it popping up in any search results. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:22:06] Alexis:<\/strong>\nDefinitely. Just it sounds like it all comes back to trustworthiness. So kind\nof really excited to hear that. Okay. All right. I&#8217;m going to go back to one of\nyour tweets. In your tweet, You mentioned that you review user feedback and\nthat you set aside a specific time to review that, which is really exciting\nbecause I feel like I&#8217;ve really felt a lot of positive energy coming from the\nBing team in terms of almost doing a listening tour and trying to figure out\nwhat&#8217;s going on in a space. And how can we then learn and react from that? So\nhow has your time that you&#8217;ve spent reviewing user feedback ever resulted in a\nnew project?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:22:39] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, that&#8217;s Ah, that&#8217;s if only super important to look at feedback. That&#8217;s a\npersonal belief I have that as products or product managers, it&#8217;s an essential\npart of our job. And I don&#8217;t know if you can do good product manager work\nwithout listening to your customers and users and partners. I can think of two\nexamples where it&#8217;s been extremely useful. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And one, it was a very visible feedback. If you\nremember last spring, I think Yoast posted something about Bing crawling too\nmuch. But they have a lot of data, probably from their plug-in, and they are\nvery well informed on these problems. And we took the feedback very seriously\nand way heard before from other people. That Bing tends to crawl too much\ncompared to Google, and that&#8217;s something we definitely started to look at very\nclosely. And that&#8217;s what resulted last week. I believe in this new indexing a API\nwere announced at SMX West, as well as the integration with the Yoast Plug in\non My Yoast, which was announced at their conference last week. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So this is very concrete case where the feedback\nwe&#8217;ve been listening to, and we&#8217;ve been aggregating, compounded with someone\nvery visible and very vocal who forced the same feedback resulted in something\nextremely concrete that we announced in the past couple of weeks. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Something that is a bit fuzzier probably is around\nspam and all the all the times we are failing our users, so to speak. And I\ntake the feedback extremely seriously. And when I hear several different people\ntell me, if I type a query for this domain, like the name of the drug or this\nkind of things, and I really see bad results. This informs where we&#8217;re going to\ninvest our resources. And if I hear that a certain area is getting more and\nmore spam, or if some very technical people come to me and say, I notice that\nthis category of site, putting these key words in this way or whatever is\nranking higher than they used to. This is just all goodness. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I invite all the listeners if you have any feedback\nyou want to give to us, you can tweet at me directly on Twitter. Or you can use\nthe feedback form on Bing on the upper right menu and we take it extremely\nseriously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:24:58] Alexis<\/strong>:\nThat&#8217;s awesome. It&#8217;s almost like keeping one ear to the ground just to make\nsure that everything is going well, like a pulse, which is awesome. So thank\nyou for doing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:25:05] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, and in the end we do it for our users. So, like we have a lot of ways to\nscale or understanding of user satisfaction with metrics and numbers. But\nthere&#8217;s nothing like qualitative feedback, like actual people. I have a\npersonal belief that if you talk to ten users and you listen to their actuals\nverbatim feedback you learn so much more than just looking at a number, even if\nthe number of covers one billion users.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:25:35] Alexis:<\/strong>\nIt&#8217;s just so interesting to hear, though, that that qualitative feedback is so\nvaluable because I think a lot of times when we think about data, we think\nabout data and the massive amounts of information that, like even we receive on\nthe webmaster end. And I mean, I can only imagine how much you guys received on\nyour end. But we usually think about all quantitative, quantitative,\nquantitative. But the value of qualitative data is so interesting and how it\ncan give you a totally different perspective. So thank you for sharing that\nwith us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:26:02] Max: <\/strong>I&#8217;d\nlike to go back on the fact that there&#8217;s not a lot of differences. And what webmasters\ntechnical SEO\u2019s and the SEO can do to optimize for search engines like at least\nBing and Google. There was one that I can think in term of, you know, those\ntechnical tags that we implement, and things that we do a hreflang tags for\ninternational SEO and we all know that hreflang tags &#8211; they do work for Google,\nwell most of the time, but it could be extremely complicated, setup and\nimplementation really are to manage. Bing has not been on board with, like a\ntag, can you tell us a little bit about like, how are you guys like, really\nhandle that? Not duplicate content, but violations, international violations\nand how you detect like the targeted audience, basically for this website that\nare multiple, like regional languages to target.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:26:55] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric<\/strong>:\nSo I&#8217;m going to be a very disappointing answer. I&#8217;m not very familiar with the hreflang\ntag treatment at Bing, so instead of giving an answer that I think would be\ninaccurate. What I can tell you is if you have a Web sites like, let&#8217;s say, blah\ndot com and in English blah dot fr in French. And if it is the same company and\nlike, we have some ways to detect that this is not duplicate content that this\nis actually like two different language is the same thing if you have, like,\nslash en and slash fr on given website. But in terms of hreflang, I just don&#8217;t\nknow, so sorry about that,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:27:43] Max:<\/strong>\nYeah, as well, as we know, like officially Bing does not support hreflang tag\nagain. That&#8217;s not something that I&#8217;m really surprised of because it&#8217;s a very\ncomplex implementation. I even heard people at Google that have been working on\ncreating those tags that they&#8217;ll not extremely satisfied with the way it turned\nout. That it turned out to be more complicated, that they wanted it to be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:28:04] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nWell, What I can tell you is it&#8217;s already complicated enough when you have only\none language and in two different websites, and you want to do just a simple\nredirect from one to the other or simple economical. And sometimes when I look\nat the presentations from other SEOs in in conferences. And they show this\nsuper complicated graph for like, four websites, all canonicalizing to one\nanother with the hreflang in like multiple foreign languages like, it just\nsounds like an extremely hard problem. So I&#8217;m not surprised that some people at\nGoogle say it is hard, we don&#8217;t get it right all the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:28:41] Max:<\/strong>\nYeah, Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:28:42] Alexis:<\/strong> That\nreminded me just a concept of different words going back to the question of\nvectors, you talked about in your tech SEO boost this idea that when you\nassociate words as vectors, it ends up being more efficient. Why vectors? And\nI&#8217;m mostly curious because I&#8217;m in a class, and we literally just learned about\nhow to calculate the distance between two vectors. So I loved when you muttered\nunder your breath, you&#8217;re like you could just use the cosine of the angle. I\nwas like, uou totally can. (lol) It was like I can find you the formula for\nthat. But I was curious about what is it about vectors? And for people who are\nless technical with math, vector is almost like just a direction or an arrow\nwith a line. So if you look at Frederic\u2019s presentation, you can get that type\nof visual or just Google word vectors. But why are word vectors so useful?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:29:28] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> so\nso in ah, in summary, like the key concept here is embeddings, and the idea is\nthat you get, I don&#8217;t know, maybe one hundred thousand words like a million\nwords in the language, and you want to find similarities between the words. So\nthe way we do that is we convert these words into a series of numbers. And,\nlike, depending on what the exact implementation we have, it&#8217;s a one hundred\nnumbers that are going to represent what this word means. And you train your\nmodel so that words that mean roughly the same thing or that are similar have\nnumbers are close to each other. And so that&#8217;s a nice way to essentially\ncompact the knowledge in your dictionary into a simple representation of one\nhundred numbers. And so although all these numbers represent different\ndirection in them in the most dimensional space. So if you imagine, like the\nreal world of three dimensions, there, like three numbers, like left right like\nthat so to speak, in this world, it&#8217;s like one hundred different dimensions.\nAnd so we tried to find the similarities, and in the end, you mentioned like we\nmeasured the distance essentially between two different words. And so if you\nhave something like, let&#8217;s say apple and orange, these are like fairly\ndifferent objects. The words are completely different, but these are fruits, so\nyou the concepts are still, like relatively similar. So I expect these words to\nbe relatively close in the space. And the reason why it&#8217;s extremely useful for\nsearch and SEO in general is it just gets you away from this idea that you need\nto see synonyms or you need to make sure that you cover like ten different\nvariations of the same concept. The hope here is that the machine is going\nturns than that. If you are, ah, fruit distributor, you don&#8217;t need like apples\npears distributor dot com, orange business dot com, pear business dot com. We\nunderstand you\u2019re a fruit distributor. All these things like makes sense to the\nmachine so that that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s extremely exciting for us as A development.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:31:51] Max:<\/strong> I\nlove that you say that I always used the superhero example like telling people\nthat, Yes, if you do want to rank like about Superman, then maybe good that\nyour website talk about, like Batman or Spiderman. And again, as you just\nmentioned about the fruits, they&#8217;re all different words. But they are related\nbecause there were, like, superhero name, and it will make the website worth\nmore relevant for a particular topic. And, something like that, I need to\nexpand to the context of what the topic is actually about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:32:22] Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah,\nand it&#8217;s almost like a lot of people in the industry I&#8217;ve noticed over the\nlast, probably two years have been talking about this idea of entity\noptimization versus focusing on keywords but focusing on that overall, being\nknown for something, essentially.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:32:36] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, that&#8217;s very interesting. We will be working on entities for quite a while\nat Bing, and there was a time like before and entities and vectors, and this\nconcept of similarities really caught on where this was a bit much more, kind\nof handcrafted, so to speak. And so you would have liked this very strict\nrelationship or like an entity links to another with, like, for example,\nMicrosoft is a company. So next to the type was really a field in the entity is\n\u201ccompany\u201d. And then \u201cis CEO\u201d is like Satya\n(Nadella) and that would be\nlike a related person. And then the relationship and it feels like What is\nrelational? It is a manager and like and what? It&#8217;s kind of magical with these\nvectors and entities is&nbsp; &#8211; all of these\nrelationships come completely natural. You don&#8217;t need someone to tell you\nexactly what is the relationship between Microsoft and Satya. And what is extremely interesting\nto look at the literature and that that is probably one of the most fascinating\nproperties of these vectors, is if you, the distance between Microsoft and Satya\nNadella in the Vector Space\nis the same as the distance between Google and Sundar Pichai.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:33:26] Alexis:<\/strong>\nWeird\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:33:30] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> And\nso, like you just drove, like essentially a triangle between Microsoft, Google\nand Sundar Pichai Then you can extremely easily find that Satya has the same\nrelationship with Microsoft which is similar to their relationship with Google\nand I find that it&#8217;s really fascinating, and that just makes sense, the\nrelationship so much more powerful because you can just learn them in the wild.\nInstead of being to handcraft them over time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:33:30]<\/strong>:\nThat&#8217;s so mind blowing. And when I&#8217;m visualizing this, I don&#8217;t know if anybody\nhas seen the graph of Word2Vec. But basically it sounds like exactly what\nyou&#8217;re talking about, which it&#8217;s probably stands for word to vector, but\nbasically it&#8217;s like that three dimensional graph of words. So you like, you&#8217;re\ntalking about You could almost see the clusters of information of things that\nare, like, similar and related together as almost like a group of things that\nair in one area. Just kind of cool to think about. But that&#8217;s actually it&#8217;s\neven more mind blowing that like that relationship, the distance is exactly\nsimilar. That&#8217;s crazy. Yeah, mind blown.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:34:52] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> I\nthink in their example, they used a man, woman, King, Queen, if I remember\ncorrectly. And yeah, that&#8217;s exactly what I had in mind. So I think if you if\nyou&#8217;re if you&#8217;re in technical SEO reading the work to make paper or in general\nlike these foundational papers and word embeddings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:35:11] Alexis:<\/strong>\nthat&#8217;s so brilliant and so fascinating, too. I really hope the you know it&#8217;s\npretty much the same in the vector space like no, totally different in the\nspace. I really do hope that catches on. I think it&#8217;s kind of like, interesting\nto think about. I mean it basically, just if you were when you said something\nlike that, it inferred that like, it&#8217;s all about relevancy. But I just think\nit&#8217;s kind of like another funny way to say that. I think that SEOs tend to find\nfunny ways to say things. Also, I do want to give you shout out &#8211; I thought it\nwas really cool that you mentioned Karen Jones in your speech. I know that she\nrecently passed away, but really cool to have women of science mentioned and\nespecially lauded for their accomplishments. So, thank you for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:35:52] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric<\/strong>:\nAnd she is really one of the most important persons in the field of information\nretrieval, which is like the precursor to search (and SEO). And if you look at\nher work, a lot of people talk about tf-idf. So she&#8217;s the mother of -idf. And\nthis specific part of the formula is actually one that it survived the time, so\nif you look at for more advanced things like <a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Okapi_BM25\">BM25<\/a>. The tf- part has been\nchanged quite a bit. But the idea of the -idf is almost exactly the same. BM25 is\nconsidered state of the art today for informational travel in in some sense. So\nit&#8217;s quite incredible that her work, really, is still extremely relevant to the\nfield, like forty years after she wrote a paper on the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:36:39] Alexis<\/strong>:\nIsn&#8217;t that crazy? I think. Isn&#8217;t that, like every scientist\u2019s dream that their\nwork out-lives them? So amazing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:36:45] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, There is in a lot of conferences, They have these conferences there where\nthey call the \u201ctest of time\u201d paper for and they look at all the papers that\nwere published ten years before. I think ten years is the canonical time. And\nthey give the award to whatever paper is still relevant or the most relevant at\nthe time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:37:07] Alexis:<\/strong>\nAnd I mean, obviously something that we want to encourage our scientists to do is\nhave relevant papers! &nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>All right, so for the closing question, Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric,\nbasically, I&#8217;ve been asking all of the other people that have joined the\npodcast. What are their three golden nuggets of advice, which is essentially &#8211;\nwhat should you do from an interpersonal level, a site-related level or really,\njust a personal development level? Could be anything but just three pieces of\nadvice that you have for our listeners.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:37:35] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nThat&#8217;s ah, that&#8217;s a great open question. I would say that the number one is to\nremember that you build things for people. We are an industry where we are\nbuilders. We build websites, we build products, we build the search engine. We\nall build these things for people. So this is the number one thing, my goal, as\na Bing product manager, is to make sure the product is going to be useful to\nthe people who use it and the consequence for you as webmaster or SEO is &#8211; it\nis important that the content you build is going to be useful to my users,\nbecause I mean the intermediary between my user and you. So I want I want to be\nable to vouch for you and say, \u201cYes, I think this is a great result, and I happily\nsend by users to you.\u201d So that&#8217;s definitely like the number one from, Ah, more\ntechnical point of view. On. I&#8217;m just going to reuse what I said a few years\nago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:38:32] Alexis:<\/strong> I\ntotally feel for you. You can totally reuse whatever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:38:35] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nAnd definitely start looking at embeddings and similarities and how modern NLP\nis done with deep learning. If you have a little bit of time, take the Coursera\nfrom Andrew Ng. There&#8217;s a machine learning 101. And there&#8217;s the deep learnings\nspecialization, which is a set of five different courses. I found it easy to\ntake deep learning, even without the machine learning knowledge. I just happen\nto do the machine learning before, but this is a great course. You don&#8217;t need a\nlot of technical math background, and he&#8217;s going to give you a lot of the\nunderstanding around deep learning. So that&#8217;s That would be my advice. Like if\nyou if you can blow a little bit of time over the next few months to take this specialization\nor even if it&#8217;s not on Coursera just like, learn more about these things, deep\nlearning and how it&#8217;s using NLP that that is the future. That is really the\nfuture. You get an edge just by learning about these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:39:37] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah, I love that. Andrew is definitely the man, too. So\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:39:40] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nabsolutely he worked with biggest companies. Like just not Microsoft. We need\nto hire him at some point, just so he can &nbsp;have the Grand Slam Big companoes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:39:52] Alexis<\/strong>: Yeah,\nwhen you look up his resume, he was very high up in Google. Then he worked at Baidu.\nSo. Yeah. You guys totally need to hire him at Bing So he has, like everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:40:02] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric: <\/strong>Exactly\nwhen, when your lowest achievement is being a professor at Stanford like that,\njust speaks like&#8230;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:40:08] Alexis: That&#8217;s<\/strong> so\ntrue, but yes he&#8217;s actually his class on machine learning is also very good on Coursera.\nAnd then I think it&#8217;s a little bit better than the one that&#8217;s on iTunes\nUniversity because that one&#8217;s basically the older class, but specifically for\nStanford. Yeah, great, great point. I&#8217;ll definitely I&#8217;m going to check out that\ndeep learning course too now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:40:29] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nYeah, the machine learning one is definitely a bit more technical. I think, and\nespecially he had two versions, one on Coursera, and he had the one on the\nStanford website. But they think the iTunes one, that&#8217;s really the one he had\non Stanford. The one on the Stanford websites &#8211; it was really assumed that you\nbasically followed all the classes at Stanford before. And so we have, a lot of\nknowledge in algebra and like a lot of things like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:40:58] Alexis:<\/strong>\nyeah, if you don&#8217;t know what partial derivatives are, it&#8217;s very discouraging.\n(lol)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:41:01] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nExactly. He forces you to compute them. (lol) Whereas the deep learning one,\nyou don&#8217;t need that technical background. And a lot of times he says that he\nactually say, if you know about these partial derivatives and everything &#8211; Great\n&#8211; here is like some reading for you. If you don&#8217;t know about it, just forget\nabout this. Understanding concept Is somewhat more important than being able to\ncomplete it partial derivative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:41:25] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah, I love that idea of having to understand intuition of what you&#8217;re\nactually trying to achieve in math. I feel like that&#8217;s something that&#8217;s\nunderappreciated art, which I thought you did a great job in your tech boost\ntalk as well, like saying like, \u201cWell, here&#8217;s the intuition of it, you know?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:41:40] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nWell, I guess I tried to channel my Andrew at Tech SEO boost, because he does\nthat a lot. I think these videos and then when we talk about one hundred dimension\nvector spaces, it&#8217;s gonna be extremely hard to visualize or understand what it\nis. And so a lot of time in his videos is going to explain the intuition behind\nit. And like, why we do this a certain way. And that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s just a great,\ngreat series, of course, and not just like good deep learning class, It is just\nlike I think <em>the<\/em> reference at this\npoint to learn more about deep learning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I will use my my third key points, maybe to do a\nlittle bit of upselling for Bing. In the sense that, we released this crawling,\nindexing API very recently. There was an integration with Yoast, but you don&#8217;t\nneed to use Yoast. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a website that is running on any\nplatform, you can still go ahead &#8211; register with Bing Webmaster Tools and start\nusing the API or even just submitting your URLs directly there. And for most\nwebsites, if you do that, you should like differently great improvements in\nterms of the crawling and indexing. So that would be really my top\nrecommendation. If you feel you&#8217;re old Index isn\u2019t crawling properly with Bing\nstart with Bing webmaster tools, submit some URLs and that should solve most of\nthe problems <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:43:05] Max:<\/strong>\nAre you saying that we should not use XML sitemaps anymore? (lol)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:43:10] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong> XML\nsitemaps are good, but they are just a least of all &#8211; like the way we see it &#8211; it&#8217;s\nthe least of all the URLs on your website. And if have a million of them, maybe\nyou care a lot about ten thousand of them, not the entire one million.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that&#8217;s great, because you can submit ten\nthousand URLs to the submit URLs feature on webmaster tools. And these are the\nones we&#8217;re going to prioritize. So we can discover all million from your\nsitemap. But instead of letting us decide which ones are more important, we\njust prefer you telling us which ones are important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:43:40] Max:<\/strong>\nThat is amazing. Thank you, guys, for putting that together and making it\navailable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:43:44] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah. Congratulations! That&#8217;s so exciting and exciting for us as well in the\nsearch community, so thanks! Well, I know you have a tight time schedule, but\nthank you so much for coming on our show and for educating us all on Bing and\nthe history. And of course, some of the more technical knowledge as well, very,\nvery exciting and very honored to have you on the podcast. We&#8217;ll definitely\nhave to check out some of the more technical things, like embeddings as well as\ndeep learning. So thank you for that as well! It&#8217;s been an honor!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:44:12] Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric:<\/strong>\nThanks for having me!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[<strong>00:44:13] Alexis:<\/strong> Alright. Thanks, ciao everyone!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Linked Resources: Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric&#8217;s Twitter (@CoperniX) Word embeddings Word2Vec Visualization Andrew Ng&#8217;s deep learning course Bing&#8217;s new indexing API Fr\u00e9d\u00e9ric&#8217;s TechSEO [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":428,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":[],"categories":[],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v16.6.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Podcast: 2. 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