{"id":759,"date":"2019-06-10T06:02:10","date_gmt":"2019-06-10T13:02:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/technicalseo.com\/insights\/?post_type=episode&#038;p=759"},"modified":"2019-06-18T13:28:30","modified_gmt":"2019-06-18T20:28:30","slug":"steve-valenza","status":"publish","type":"episode","link":"https:\/\/technicalseo.com\/insights\/podcast\/steve-valenza\/","title":{"rendered":"7. Interview w\/ Steve Valenza, REI"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<h2>Resources:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul><li>Steve&#8217;s LinkedIn:&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/stevevalenza\/\">https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/stevevalenza\/<\/a><\/li><li>Little Warden:&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/littlewarden.com\/\">https:\/\/littlewarden.com\/<\/a><\/li><li>Uptime Robot:&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/uptimerobot.com\/#newUser\">https:\/\/uptimerobot.com\/<\/a><\/li><li>Google&#8217;s documentation on checking to see if lazy loading images works:<ul><li><a href=\"https:\/\/developers.google.com\/search\/docs\/guides\/lazy-loading\">https:\/\/developers.google.com\/search\/docs\/guides\/lazy-loading<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/developers.google.com\/web\/fundamentals\/performance\/lazy-loading-guidance\/images-and-video\/\">https:\/\/developers.google.com\/web\/fundamentals\/performance\/lazy-loading-guidance\/images-and-video\/<\/a><\/li><\/ul><\/li><li>Puppeteer:&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/developers.google.com\/web\/tools\/puppeteer\/\">https:\/\/developers.google.com\/web\/tools\/puppeteer\/<\/a><\/li><li>Rendertron:&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/github.com\/GoogleChrome\/rendertron\">https:\/\/github.com\/GoogleChrome\/rendertron<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2>Timestamps:<strong><br><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>[0:00] Intros<br>[1:20] In-house versus agency (day-to-day, long-term vision, relationships, execution of tasks, etc.)<br>[2:43] Dealing with different personalities(developers vs. merchandising)&nbsp;<br>     &#8211; developers &#8211; close to the project<br>     &#8211; merchandising &#8211; moving fast<br>     &#8211; c-suite &#8211; prefer quick\/concise, focused in #s<br>[6:21] Importance of internal education<br>[7:20] Shift from ranking-focused to customer focused<br>     &#8211; work closely with UX<br>     &#8211; most sites are good at basic SEO tasks<br>[10:00] How often to refresh internal trainings? what topics to choose?<br>     &#8211; start w\/evergreen 101s (e.g., pagination, facets)<br>     &#8211; don&#8217;t assume anyone knows basic SEO 101s (e.g., meta elements)<br>     &#8211; also important to try to build in guardrails for site deployments<br>[12:00] Structure of SEO team &#8211; breaking out content and technical<br>[13:30] Any reason\/finding that people go content or technical? It&#8217;s the path<br>[14:50] What does a day-to-day of a technical SEO in eComm look like?- Start w\/looking at log files, reporting<br>     &#8211; Focusing on training and documentation<br>     &#8211; Trying to get a framework to simple questions (building a resource library)<br>     &#8211; Code review<br>[17:00] What in eCommerce do you need to get right?<br>     &#8211; JS renderability<br>     &#8211; Facet navigation (e.g., what categories indexed\/noindexed? how specific of a facet?)<br>     &#8211; Finding and fixing bugs<br>[23:00] Speed (+try lazy loading images)[25:00] Shifts in eCommerce SEO<br>     &#8211; one team moving forward (SEO and development)<br>[27:40] Challenges large eCommerce sites face today?<br>     &#8211; How can we connect users to the entire site? (building an ecosystem)<br>     &#8211; Bots being able to find your pages (via log files), reviewing the setup of the site<br>     &#8211; Site speed<br>[32:00] 3 nuggets of advice:<br>     1. Understanding your organization (structure, ppl in it) and make relationships strong<br>           &#8211; Being able to explain SEO to different types of ppl<br>           &#8211; Make SEO digestible<br>    2. Automate everything you can (e.g., reporting, site monitoring, building safe guards)<br>    3. Pay attention to what Google is doing, keep up with updates<strong><br><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2>My Favorite Steve Quotes:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul><li>&#8220;I think with developers there&#8217;s so intertwined and close to the code, close to the work that they had been putting in on the site that they really have an affinity towards it. It&#8217;s kind of like their little piece of art. &#8220;<\/li><li>&#8221; There&#8217;s a really big switch over, I think, from where once was where the SEO team was just trying to rank better or trying to kind of beat Google in a specific way. We&#8217;re now more just trying to make our language and make our focus that we&#8217;re all here for the customer. And when everyone kind of gets in that same room and that same mentality, I think it&#8217;s a huge advantage for any project that goes forward.&#8221;<\/li><li>&#8221; So we&#8217;re really focusing on, when we want to make an SEO move, we talk to the UX team, and we kind of combined our power and our knowledge to make a move that actually propels both programs. That&#8217;s what&#8217;s kind of in a big unlock for us, that we&#8217;re not just making SEO specific moves anymore. We&#8217;re really leaning on other departments to make holistic moves, more so. &#8220;<\/li><li>&#8220;You don&#8217;t just build trust by throwing work at other departments. You build trust by getting them on the same page, getting them behind your projects and having them actually understand \u2018the why,\u2019 not just the actual project that&#8217;s going on.&#8221;<\/li><li> &#8220;It&#8217;s not just making the fixes, it&#8217;s really making the fixes as immediate as possible,&#8221;<\/li><li>&#8220;The goal is to have developers reaching out to us about what to do about SEO.&#8221;<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2>Transcript:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:00] Alexis Sanders:<\/strong> Hello. Hello. And welcome back to SEO in lab. Today I&#8217;m joined with\nSteve Valenza with REI and I\u2019m so excited to have you here today, Steve.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:09] Steve Valenza:<\/strong> Well, it&#8217;s good to be a part of this,\nAlexis. I am so happy that you finally put this podcast together because I have\nbeen excited to see where this podcast can go,\nand I&#8217;m definitely ready to be a part of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:19] Alexis<\/strong>:\nNice. Nice. It&#8217;s such an honor. So would you mind giving the audience a little\nbit of an introduction?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:00:25] Steve:<\/strong>\nYeah, of course. So, to not go too far back, But I am originally from Pittsburgh. I grew up my entire\nlife in Pittsburgh, PA. So 26 years, and then\nI had a pretty drastic life change about seven months ago, to where I moved across the entire country. And I&#8217;m now\nofficially based in Seattle working for REI on\ntheir technical SEO team. So I did work with you at Merkle obviously for a couple of years there, and then\ndecided to come in house over to REI and start\nthe whole inhouse journey with the team here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:00] Alexis<\/strong>:\nThat&#8217;s awesome! Yeah, and thanks so much for being my co-worker for a few years,\nyou know, miss you over here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:07] Steve:<\/strong> I\ndefinitely miss Merkle at times. The chaos is\ndefinitely something I missed a little bit. Loved it there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:13] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah. Gosh, yeah. Agency life, all the chaos that we have. Has there been any\nshifts in house versus agency that you&#8217;ve seen?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:21] Steve:<\/strong> My\ngosh, it&#8217;s a totally different world. I came in here not expecting it to be a\ncomplete reversal of what I once thought of SEO\nin the work that we did, but everything from the day-to-day work to the long-term\nvisions and how work is approached,\nit\u2019s totally\ndifferent. Not in a bad or good way, just something that I\nneed to definitely get used to. And I&#8217;m starting to get used to. I\u2019ve been here for about seven months now. So I guess I better\nstart getting used to it sooner or later, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:01:52] Alexis:<\/strong> (Lol)\nDefinitely. And so, what would be like one example of something along those\nlines for someone that&#8217;s, you know, maybe works in-house and has never seen the agency side of the business?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:02] Steve:<\/strong>\nYeah, so it definitely relies and comes down\nto the relationships: relationships with your\ndevelopers, relationships with product\nmanagers (and) project managers. It&#8217;s imperative to get work moving forward. Back in agency life, you\nwould do this great deliverable, you pass it\noff to your contact, whatever client you&#8217;re working on. Then they would do the hard part of\nmaking the relationships and making that work move forward. It&#8217;s definitely a\ndifferent vibe and a different atmosphere when\nnot only do you do the work, but then you also have to figure out the\nrelationships and how to push that work forward. So that&#8217;s probably the biggest\nhurdle and is something that I&#8217;m starting to\nget used to now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:42] Alexis<\/strong>: Definitely. And do you find that there&#8217;s any personality\ndifferences or things that are really effective with developers versus someone\non, like merchandising?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:02:49] Steve<\/strong>: Wow, totally different personalities. I think with developers there&#8217;s so intertwined\nand close to the code, close to the work that they had been putting in on the\nsite that they really have an affinity towards it. It&#8217;s kind of like their\nlittle piece of art. So you almost have\nto talk to them in a sense of you&#8217;re not trying to change this beautiful painting, this beautiful art that\nthey built, you\u2019re trying to work with them. And on with the merchant\nside of things, they&#8217;re kind of just trying to move fast. So the merchants are\ntrying to get things out, they\u2019re trying to kind of do what&#8217;s best for the user. So you really have to balance which bets for SEO, which bets\nfor user experience and which kind of bets for conversion rate as well. So that&#8217;s kind of balancing a lot of different factors and\nyou really got to put different hats on when you&#8217;re talking those different\ndepartments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:03:36] Alexis<\/strong>: And\ndo you guys deal a lot with Executives or C-Suite people?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:03:40] Steve<\/strong>: So me personally, not so much, but my team, very much so. REI is in a great position where they, up from my level to the C suite, they understand that SEO is imperative for our\nsuccess. It brings in a massive portion of our business and the C suite really recognizes that. Talking to them and really putting the goals together for them has been a huge switch up for me as well,\nbecause they like to have the information quick and it likes to be concise,\nand I really like to be long winded and fully explain\nmy process, so I&#8217;ve had to kind of constrain that and put it into some concise words, but still getting used to\nit, because I, like I said, very long winded,\nusually.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:04:26] Alexis<\/strong>: (lol)\nVery long winded, thinking about it right now.\nYeah, it can\nbe really tough when you&#8217;re really passionate about something to not go or talk\ntoo much about it, especially when you&#8217;re close to the details. But I can\nimagine that, you know, someone who has to control everything would have,\nuh, would want to make sure everything was a little\nbit more terse in their day. So do you find\nthat it&#8217;s really useful or imperative to have that executive support? And how\ndo you think that shapes an organization? Do\nyou think it would be much more challenging to do your job without that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:01] Steve:<\/strong> It\nwould be incredibly difficult to do my job without that, especially with an\norganization the size of REI. Everyone has\ntheir own mindsets, and some of them are set kind of in stone. So to actually have that support from the C-suite. It&#8217;s where,\nwhen we push a project forward, that&#8217;s kind of a massive change for the site.\nIt&#8217;s not just the three of us on the SEO team\npushing that project forward. But we have that buy-in from the C-suite that, as you could be, as you could\nrecognize and be aware that when they get that push from the C-suite, projects\ntend to move faster forward. So, not only, you know, you\ncould imagine I&#8217;m guessing&#8230;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:38] Alexis<\/strong>:\n(lol) I\u2019m imagining it right now. It\u2019s\nso nice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:05:42] Steve<\/strong>: I\nknow, it&#8217;s something that I didn&#8217;t think would play\nas pivotal of a roll as it did moving projects forward. But right when that project\nthat started and that C-Suite kind of gets\nbehind it, you can watch the project kind of get propelled forward over ones\nthat don&#8217;t actually have that backing or that\nkind of reliance on the C-suite as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:06:04] Alexis:<\/strong> And\nso are there any secret tips or tricks to winning C-Suite approval?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:06:09] Steve:<\/strong> Numbers, (lol) I would say is the biggest mover. What we really try to do and what I have been actually put a pretty huge focus on for the first\nseven months here is educating the C-suite, educating the developers, educating\nthe program managers, just to have the knowledge of SEO. So when they actually look at a project and a project\ncomes through their backlog, they don&#8217;t just\nrecognize it as something the SEO team&#8217;s trying to do. People are starting to recognize in the organization that\nthis is something that the SEO team&#8217;s trying to do specifically for the\ncustomer. So when, when the C-suite and when\nthe developers start to recognize that the SEO team is just making of strategic\nmoves to enhance the customer&#8217;s experience. There&#8217;s a really big switch over, I think, from where\nonce was where the SEO team was just trying to rank better or trying to kind of\nbeat Google in a specific way. We&#8217;re now more just trying to make our language\nand make our focus that we&#8217;re all here for the customer. And when everyone kind\nof gets in that same room and that same mentality, I think it&#8217;s a huge\nadvantage for any project that goes forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:07:16] Alexis<\/strong>: You\nmentioned that we started off more ranking focus and then we fell into a more user experience focus overall, how do you feel\nthat that message has changed? What should you do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:07:27] Steve:<\/strong> Yeah,\nit&#8217;s a super hard balance to kind of get right. You want to make SEO changes\nand some SEO changes aren&#8217;t the best thing for\nusers. So we really, at REI at least, we\nworked very closely with our UX team to make\nsure that if we&#8217;re making an SEO change, does\nit also advance the user experience of the site? Because if you make an\nSEO change and you get that little traffic or ranking\nboost but then it takes away from your UX on the site, then you lose that\ntraffic, and it kind of goes in all anyway.\nAnd that&#8217;s the same vice versa. A big UX move\ncould really detract from SEO, and then it nulls out all that work again. So\nwe&#8217;re really focusing on, when we want to make an SEO move, we talk to the UX team, and we kind of combined our power and our knowledge\nto make a move that actually propels both\nprograms. That&#8217;s what&#8217;s kind of in a big unlock for us, that we&#8217;re not just\nmaking SEO specific moves anymore. We&#8217;re really\nleaning on other departments to make holistic moves, more so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:08:29] Alexis:<\/strong> Very\nlovely. And I&#8217;m sure Google would definitely appreciate\nthe direction you guys are moving in as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:08:33] Steve:<\/strong> I\nhope so. (lol_<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:08:35] Alexis:<\/strong> Do\nyou think that&#8217;s more challenging for other\norganizations that may have not adapted that\nmentality?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:08:40] Steve:<\/strong> Yes,\nI think like I said, it was a big unlock for REI\nand I think it&#8217;s just been somewhat recently happening, to where, we&#8217;re putting more of a focus on that holistic\nview. I think companies that either, maybe\nthey don&#8217;t have a really big UX team or don&#8217;t\nhave the developer buy-in like REI does, It&#8217;s going to be a\nhuge problem to get over, but I really do believe in documentation and teaching\nthe organization is a huge and pivotal step for any\nSEO team. I couldn&#8217;t imagine relying on just the trust of, just the other\ndepartments trust in the SEO team for what\nwe&#8217;re giving them. You\ndon&#8217;t just build trust by throwing work at other departments. You build trust\nby getting them on the same page, getting them behind your projects and having\nthem actually understand \u2018the why,\u2019 not just the actual project that&#8217;s going on. So it&#8217;s going to be, I think, pivotal moving forward\nbecause SEO is getting to a point where we&#8217;re\nstarting to make everyone kind of good at the\noverall SEO tasks that you need to do on your\nday to day and big sites and it\u2019s starting to get to really\nminute changes that are actually moving the needle. And those minute changes are in desperate need of other departments to help\nthose changes move forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:09:55] Alexis:<\/strong> And\nso how do you decide what to educate your developers on or your C-suite on?\nEspecially considering how fast your industry\nmoves, how often do you think it&#8217;s important to refresh their knowledge?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:10:07] Steve:<\/strong> It\u2019s incredibly tough to keep up with. You know that for sure.\nWe&#8217;ve done training programs together in the past, and I&#8217;ve been trying to put\na training together at REI right now. And it\nevolves so quickly that what do you what do you teach developers, right? You\nteach them something one day, and it&#8217;s like five days later, like actually,\nGoogle changed something and it doesn&#8217;t make sense anymore for you. We&#8217;ve taken\na focus, though, on teaching the incredible basics. So the 101\u2019s of pagination,\nthe 101\u2019s of faceted navigation, things that\naren&#8217;t going to change anytime soon. No matter what really Google makes a big change or with the search engines\nthey&#8217;re actually making and changing, there&#8217;s some factors of SEO that aren&#8217;t going to change, at least, I would like to\nthink so. So we&#8217;re teaching them basic meta-elements, Just what are\nthe meta-elements? You have to really take a\nstance of, everyone, even though you may think that everyone knows what a meta\nelement is or everyone knows what a pagination\nis, they definitely don&#8217;t. (lol) And that&#8217;s\nnot a knock, that&#8217;s not a knock on the developers,\nit\u2019s not a knock on\nour creative team. Normal people in normal\njobs shouldn&#8217;t know what the correct way to implement faceted navigation for SEO,\nit\u2019s as simple as that. So we really get down to the bare facts that these things aren\u2019t going to be changing, this is the correct way to do it. We&#8217;re really just going through the simple 101 best practices as a whole\nwith them. And then we build documentation around boilerplate, basically,\nrequirements of you build a site, these are at least the general structural SEO factors that you&#8217;re\ngoing to need to take into place when you&#8217;re building that site. So we do try\nto build some guardrails around site builds and deployments as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:11:57] Alexis:<\/strong> Nice. And so you mentioned that you&#8217;re a technical SEO. When you talk about REI\ndo you have a content component to your work?\nOr is it, do you have someone that&#8217;s your\nequivalent on the content side?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:12:10] Steve:<\/strong> Yes.\nSo right now we have three people on the technical side and we have two people\non the content side of SEO. So they&#8217;re doing,\nas you can imagine, content strategy, content deployment, keyword research. They do, kind of run the whole gambit of content\nSEO for us. So we&#8217;re really more focused on how bots are coming into our site. All\nthe technical aspects, the rendering of our pages, so on and so forth on that\nside of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:12:38] Alexis:<\/strong> And\nyou think that breakouts really useful to have?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:12:40] Steve:<\/strong> Yes,\nthere is, especially maybe for a smaller business. You might be able to get an\nSEO that is going to be able to do both sides of the\nhouse. But for a company the size of REI or\neven a middle tier company, there&#8217;s just simply too much work to be done. I&#8217;ve\nworked in the agency life where we were a part of both programs, and its overwhelming sometimes. Content SEO and then switch over to technical SEO and then switched back to content SEO. I think it&#8217;s absolutely crucial to deploy two different\nteams that have the time, the energy and the brain capacity to focus on just\none technical SEO or one specific content SEO factor.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:13:22] Alexis:<\/strong>\nDefinitely. Yeah, I like the idea conceptually, too, because it, do you find that on your team that the people who tend to like\nmore problem solving, more technical development, programming type of things\ngravitate towards technical, whereas people who are more artistic or marketing\nbased gravitate more towards content? Or are\nthere any like breakouts that you see there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:13:42] Steve:<\/strong> It&#8217;s\nthat fact, but also more of just the simple paths that people have taken. For me, when I\nworked through Merkle, I just gravitated more towards that getting in the weeds factor or that finding\nout, or kind of put it together, that puzzle\nof these search algorithms. So I really got interested in the fact, and I kind of started gearing myself more\ntowards the technical side of things, even though I still enjoyed the contents\nside of things, and I do have that artistic\nsense when I am focusing on content, I just\nfound my ground and my (Alexis: passion) Well, I guess it would be a passion.\nMy passion towards the technical side of SEO.\nSo I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s a specific skill set that\ndrives you one way or another but more of a specific passion of how you want to\nspend, you know, forty hours a week, and I\nfound it that technical SEO takes up most certainly all forty hours of my week and\nI really enjoy it. So I think, yeah, you got to\nfollow your passion on that one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:14:41] Alexis:<\/strong>\nNice. That&#8217;s so lovely. Okay, so working for a technical SEO in E-com, what does a day-to-day looks like, for instance?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:14:49] Steve:<\/strong>\nYeah. I mean, like any SEO out there that&#8217;s\ngoing to be listening to this, your day today changes very drastically. So\nit is nothing different when you get into a specific technical\nSEO role. For the most part, I can say every day I come in and I am\nlooking at\nlog files, I am looking at some reporting. We\nuse some reporting tools that we get into and can look at kind of our pulse on\nthe site. So I do that just about every day. And that&#8217;s just to kind of stay\nclose to the site and keep understanding how\nthe site\u2019s evolving. Then on the outside of that stuff is kind of a whole mess of things that I could be doing. So some\ndays, and most days, I do focus on, especially that\nI&#8217;m kind of new to this position at REI,\nI&#8217;m focusing on a\nlot of training and a lot of documentation right now. We want to get our\nprograms, the point where, no matter what position you&#8217;re at in the company, there&#8217;s an outlet in an asset that you can\ngo look at that can answer your questions about SEO. We have so many questions\nthat come in, and every SEO out there has an\nabsolute absorbent amount of questions that\ncome in throughout the day from different departments. People trying to figure\nout very, sometimes simple, and sometimes very specific questions. We\u2019re trying to at least\nget these simple questions off our plate, so people have a resource to go to\nand kind of answer that simple question. So day-to-day I&#8217;m doing a lot of\ndocumentation, and then we&#8217;re really kind of\njust, code review is a massive part of our days as well. REI has eight different\nsites, so we are consistently and continually\ndeploying different pieces across different sites. We always are in code review, making sure that things that\nare being deployed are going to be SEO\nfriendly. So I think that kind of covers as\nmuch as I could be doing throughout the day. Then\nI know&#8230;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:16:47] Alexis:<\/strong> That was it. That&#8217;s all you\ncould be doing. (lol) Just kidding. It\u2019s a lot. Just going through all the logs and reviewing the\nentire code of the site.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:16:58] Steve:<\/strong> It fills up a day very\nquickly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:17:00] Alexis<\/strong>: Yeah,\ndefinitely. So do you think there are any really\nimportant elements for eCommerce technical SEO\u2019s to get right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:17:07] Steve:<\/strong>\nYeah. I mean, you have the, all the basic technical SEO elements that you need to be getting correct. Those are kind of the broader ones,\nlike pagination tags you need to get correct, internal linking and taxonomy need to get correct. But\nwe&#8217;re really in a day and age where, you know, and this is not\nnew to anyone, but JavaScript is a part of sites now, right?\nJavaScript is everywhere on sites, and although Google says they could render\nit and we&#8217;re in that kind of back and forth phase, the really big focus right\nnow is getting those pages rendered properly, actually getting all the elements\non a page recognized by Google. And it\u2019s way\nmore difficult than you could ever imagine, just\nsitting on the outside looking in. You look at\na page and like, well, obviously Google\ncan see all that, so there&#8217;s not going to be any\nproblem there. But then you really dig into\nit, and you can come across just about any instance on any site where there\nmight be a space on the site that isn&#8217;t going\nto be recognized by Google for one reason or another. So getting everything service side rendered or at least in that space is going to be absolutely pivotal for sites moving\nforward. It&#8217;s a really, really tough one to get right, and it could get out of control pretty quickly. Next is facet\nnavigation. So nailing down what categories you want indexed, nailing down what categories you want no index, what categories\nyou actually want people to be finding the products\non so on and so forth. Getting that right and\ngetting Google accessible to these pages, it opens up new traffic avenues in a pretty insane way. To\nbe honest, we just started moving into really opening up a good bit of our\nfacets and kind of getting faceted navigation\nright, and it&#8217;s incredible the traffic that\nstarts coming in when you just open up these insanely\nspecific facets. It surprised me at first, actually. And then the last thing I have here is this is more of a minor one,\nbut it&#8217;s continuously finding and fixing bugs. I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s enough\nfocus on work that was already deployed a year ago or two years ago and keeping\nup with that work. I think sites across the\nInternet lose an absorbent amount of traffic\nfrom things that have been deployed a year or\nmore in the past. Maybe you&#8217;re not\nkeeping up the code or something deploys and just minor changes in a specific section of site.\nLet&#8217;s say something&#8217;s deployed and it takes the title tag off of this very\nsmall section of product pages or takes the H1\nand changes it to an H2 on some of your main\npages. These little fixes and letting them actually stay broken for longer\nperiods of time drastically and negatively affect sites. So I think making sure\nthat you have an incredibly acute pulse on your site and know when things break,\nknow when things change, is pivotal to keeping the\nground that you&#8217;ve already made from all the changes you&#8217;ve actually made on\nthe site.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:20:24] Alexis:<\/strong> So\ndo use any specific tools to keep up with that? Something like, you know, like a Little Warden or Uptime Robot type of thing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:20:32] Steve:<\/strong> Can you repeat that when you just broke out a little bit, sorry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:20:34] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah, definitely. So I know that one of my favorite tools is Uptime Robot to make sure\nthat the site is live and the robots.txt is live. So you have a crawler that\npings your site\nevery few minutes or so and checks to see if every, it&#8217;s returning a 200 status\ncode. But then there&#8217;s another tool that&#8217;s really popular, too, that I&#8217;m really\ninterested in called Little Warden.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:20:57] Steve:<\/strong> Wow,\nnever heard of one. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[<strong>00:20:59] Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah, and basically you set it up to cross\ncertain pages on your site and make sure that I think\nthere&#8217;s like thirty SEO elements, that it\u2019s canonical tag is the same, that you know nothing has broken or\nanything along those lines, because I know that that&#8217;s like a huge problem that\nwe have as well where changes will be pushed\nlive on a certain part of the site and you won&#8217;t be\naware of it until you look at your performance the next month and you&#8217;re like, oh,\ngosh, something&#8217;s wrong, and then you go in proactively identify what that is,\nbut at the same time, you still suffer the consequences of having done\nsomething wrong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:21:31] Steve:<\/strong> Exactly. It&#8217;s not just making the fixes, it&#8217;s really making the fixes as immediate as possible, is really the pivotal part there. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:22:42] Alexis:<\/strong> And\nI&#8217;m curious too, how do you balance, and how\nto your developers balance the need for a strong user experience with speed?\nBecause speed is part of that user experience. But at the same time, the more JavaScript,\nthe heavier sites get, the more image heavy and visual, that tends to add on\nmore weight to the site. So how, have you seen anything that you guys have\ndone? Or in the industry that has helped balance those two?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:23:06] Steve:<\/strong>\nThat&#8217;s a really tough problem. We do, luckily have, I&#8217;ve been having the past put audits out there, and had some developers dedicate a large\nportion of their time towards site speed and\nactually getting pages smaller and more minified\nfor some of the pieces of code. So we do have some focus there, I think one of\nthe easiest solutions, of course, it&#8217;s not an\neasy solution, but one of the more\nstraightforward solution is getting a little bit more into lazy loading content. And, there&#8217;s\na huge opportunity, especially for eCommerce sites that, like, for instance,\nours that&#8217;s downloading thirty products on product page, product display pages.\nOr just we have videos that are happening\nbelow the fold on our home page. So specific\npieces of content all over your site can be lazy loaded and it drastically takes the\nweight off the page. I mean, you can only imagine, let&#8217;s say we have 30\nproducts on a product page, but only six are\nabove the fold, you now have to download 24 products at the initial load. It drastically\nreduces the pace speed. Lazy loading, I would say, is kind of one of the bigger\nfactors to tackle if you really want to shave\noff a good bit of time on a page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:24:18] Alexis:<\/strong>\nDefinitely. And are you worried about Google being able to crawl that content?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:24:23] Steve:<\/strong> No,\nnot for the most part, the way we have it set up and the way\nGoogle&#8217;s kind of put it out there and made it accessible to understand if they\nare reading that lazy loaded information or not, there&#8217;s a couple documents\nthat Google&#8217;s came out with. I think was the puppeteer. You can run, but you\ncan see if Google was actually seeing your\nlazy loaded content. So there&#8217;s definitely documentation out there that,\nif you give it to a developer they&#8217;ll be able to run a\nfew tests that kind of ensure that Google&#8217;s seeing everything that they should\nbe seeing on your page. So we don&#8217;t have too\nmuch of a worry with Google passing up our products or anything like that, that\u2019s lazy loaded throughout our\nsite.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:25:03] Alexis:<\/strong>\nsweet. Yeah, okay, so do you believe the relationship between SEO and eCommerce\nsites has changed over the last five years?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:25:14] Steve:<\/strong> I\nwould have to say yes, in a simple fact, that for me I worked in the agency\nlife for about three years, and I didn&#8217;t really get to intertwine with that\nrelationship between the developers. But now, just being at REI for these seven months\nand hearing about the past conversations that have been had at REI, and these conversations that are now happening at REI, I think these relationships are drastically changing. It&#8217;s\nnot, it&#8217;s not looked at, as at least for a\nmature organization that&#8217;s really has built this relationship up, it&#8217;s getting across the fact that developers and SEOs should not be a segregated division. That is a one team moving forward mentality that really brings\nsuccess upon a department. When developers started understanding that SEOs are not (if you have a good SEO team at least) we&#8217;re\nnot making changes just to improve SEO and\njust to get their bottom line up, you have to start realizing that everyone has\nthe same goal of more traffic and more time on site. So you have to start\nrealizing that the developers are making the exact same moves as the SEO team in a sense of everyone&#8217;s working for the same goal. So there&#8217;s not much segregation anymore between the\ndepartments, and it\u2019s, it really comes down to\ndevelopers starting to realize that the work that I&#8217;m doing affects SEO and SEO\u2019s start\nreally realizing that the work that they&#8217;re doing affects developers and developers don&#8217;t like when they&#8217;re\ncode is changed. They don&#8217;t like when they have people coming in and just\nblowing up everything they&#8217;ve worked on. So you really, as an SEO, you\nhave to step back and start realizing that this is their piece of work,\nthis is their body of work, and they&#8217;ve put a ton of\ntime and effort into this, and you have to come in with the with the face and\nthe hat that we&#8217;re not trying to explode the work\nthat you&#8217;ve done, we&#8217;re just trying to enhance it and make the customer&#8217;s experience as good as possible. So really coming in with:\nwe understand the work that you&#8217;ve done, we\nunderstand where you&#8217;ve come from, I think is the big change over from where it\nused to be, where you were just kind of throw work over the fence and say, change this on your page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:27:33] Alexis<\/strong>:\nDefinitely. Okay, that was awesome. Changing gears a little bit. What do you\nthink are the top challenges large eCommerce\nsites face today?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:27:42] Steve:<\/strong> So, I would say first and foremost, it&#8217;s building a full\necosystem that inner links itself. What I mean by that is, for REI as another example, we have\neight different sites, and a large eCommerce\nsite has a bunch of different avenues that\ncustomers are going to be coming into. So for REI customers might be coming into expert advice, they might be coming into the co-op Journal, they might be coming into a product page. We have to realize and understand that when a customer\ncomes into this specific avenue, we still need to provide them the entire site\nexperience. And it&#8217;s incredibly difficult. And I&#8217;m not saying this in a sense\nthat REI has this figured out. I think that\nit&#8217;s kind of an ongoing project. How can we better connect the customer to the\nentire site at any time. But once a site gets over that fact and really understands and moves toward connecting a user to\nthe entire piece of content on expert advice when they&#8217;re on a product page\nand so on and so forth, it&#8217;s a big unlock for them, I think. It&#8217;s a huge and\na difficult problem, but that is definitely one of the focuses that REI has to kind of make a full ecosystem. I really do think\nthe search engines, Google specifically, takes into fact that when the site has a full ecosystem and a great\ncustomer experience, that kind of inner links the entire site so I think huge there. And\nthe second thing would be findability, so like we were talking about before, really digging in the log files and making sure that Google\nis actually finding all of your pages. I know that sounds obvious and kind of\nredundant, but there&#8217;s times where I&#8217;ve found that a product page just isn&#8217;t\ngetting viewed by Google, or one of our main category pages wasn&#8217;t crawled by\nGoogle in the past week, and you start to dig into these and realize that maybe the setup of my site isn&#8217;t as advantageous as\nI thought it was for the search engines to\ncome to our site. So even though a customer from our site can navigate around\nperfectly or can understand the layout of our site very easily because they see\nit all, that does not mean that Google and\nthese search engines are having the same and\nsimilar and easy experience, understanding and kind of getting through our\nentire site.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:30:10] Alexis:<\/strong>\nNice. It&#8217;s almost like the devil&#8217;s in the details.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:30:13] Steve:<\/strong> The\ndevil is in the details. That\u2019s a great\nway to put it, I\u2019ll\nbring that up to my team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:30:19] Alexis:<\/strong> Thanks. It\u2019s only your\nwords.(lol)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:30:20] Steve:<\/strong> You know, say it\u2019s getting\nit to speed. I know we can talk about a site speed, probably for the rest of the time here, but it&#8217;s\npivotal. I mean, there&#8217;s been, it&#8217;s evident now that decreasing your site speed just means more customers are staying on a site\nlonger or enjoying\nthe experience more. Google&#8217;s come out with a study, Amazon has a study on that they lose X amount of dollars\nfor a site being milliseconds faster, and it&#8217;s\ncrucial. I mean shaving off a millisecond or here\nor there in a second here or there really does drastically improve the business as a whole. You can make all the SEO\nchanges, but\nif people simply are not getting that above-the-fold content in the right\nperiod of time, it really doesn&#8217;t matter what SEO work you&#8217;ve done in the past.\nPeople are not going to stay on your site\nbecause of speed specifically. So overcoming that and\nreally understanding that the customer needs a fast site on both mobile and\ndesktop is, it&#8217;s crucial.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:31:22] Alexis:<\/strong>\nDefinitely, definitely. Well, thanks for sharing all of those tips with us.\nThat was awesome. I think everyone&#8217;s really going respond really well to that.\nSo thank you so much. Okay, so closing out, for the closing question today,\nI&#8217;ve been asking everybody that comes on the podcast, this question and I&#8217;m\nreally excited to hear what you have to say. But what are three nuggets of\nadvice for an SEO working in eCommerce (and\nlet&#8217;s just go for it) in technical SEO eCommerce. And this could be anything that could be interpersonal, site related or something that you found useful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:31:56] Steve:<\/strong>\nYeah, so I would say the first big thing for\nany SEO is understanding your organization, the structure, the people that are in it. So make those relationships first, make those relationship strong, and then start finding a way to\nmake SEO digestible for all of those departments. SEO is not, as we all know,\nthe people are going to listen to this understand that it&#8217;s not something you just learn\novernight and completely understand the whole ecosphere of SEO. It\u2019s something that you have to practice and keep learning and\nkeep understanding. And so I would say a huge and pivotal breakthrough is when\nan SEO can make a developer and a person in the\ncreative team and a person on the content team understand SEO in a similar way.\nSo getting SEO to be understood in one way\nacross the entire organization, it\u2019s going\nmove projects faster, it&#8217;s going to, not only that, but it&#8217;s going to actually make people want\nto work with the SEO team, and that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re all kind of striving for, is to get developers reaching out to us about SEO. So I&#8217;m saying that&#8217;s the first big thing. Build those\nrelationships and make SEO digestible for the people that you&#8217;re talking to.\nThe second thing is going to be automate everything\nas much as you can, make your life easier. All the things. Ah, whether it\u2019s reporting whether it&#8217;s site monitoring. I can&#8217;t tell you\nhow much time I spent on the same reporting every single week on the same site\nmonitoring every week, and just getting back\nthat five or eight hours a week of time is absolutely incredible. I can&#8217;t even\nimagine not having that time now. So automate\nif you want to check for canonical tags, or\nso every time you don&#8217;t have to check the code when\nsomething deploys because you already have tests set up to catch those kind of\nthings. It just, it saves time and actually in an exponential way, when you\nreally have all that set up. And then the last\none I would say, push your team, push your SEO\nteam to be proactive and kind of find and understand\nwhere Google&#8217;s going, they give, I mean, I know they don&#8217;t give us much, but\nthey do give us hints of where the search is going of where their minds are\nkind of going. Keep close to the algorithm updates because it&#8217;s going to start\ntelling you that, okay like for instance, mobile&#8211;, when it came out, people started recognizing that, let&#8217;s get a mobile friendly site, I wonder what that means. And then all the sudden the\nmobile first indexing roll rolled out. Some sites\nwere ready for that, and some lagged behind. So we need keep a close eye on Google, what they&#8217;re doing and how they&#8217;re\nacting to really predict where you want to take your site, whether it&#8217;s going\nto be voice search or whether it&#8217;s going to be whatever is the next thing for\nGoogle. Just keep a close ear to everything\nthey&#8217;re working on, whether it be their patents that they&#8217;re coming out or the\nnew work that their team just picked up. Just keep it really close ear\nto all the news that&#8217;s coming out of that\norganization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:35:08] Alexis:<\/strong>\nAwesome. So educate, automate and keep an ear\nto the ground. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on SEO in the lab today.\nIt\u2019s been an absolute pleasure to have you\nhere. Super cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:35:21] Steve<\/strong>: I appreciate you having me on this, Alexis. It\u2019s going to be a fantastic thing for the community to have\nanother outlet of awesome information. So thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>[00:35:30] Alexis:<\/strong>\nYeah, thanks so much. All right. Signing off, ciao.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Resources: Steve&#8217;s LinkedIn:&nbsp;https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/stevevalenza\/ Little Warden:&nbsp;https:\/\/littlewarden.com\/ Uptime Robot:&nbsp;https:\/\/uptimerobot.com\/ Google&#8217;s documentation on checking to see if lazy loading images works: https:\/\/developers.google.com\/search\/docs\/guides\/lazy-loading https:\/\/developers.google.com\/web\/fundamentals\/performance\/lazy-loading-guidance\/images-and-video\/ [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":806,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":[],"categories":[],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v16.6.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Podcast: 7. 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